posted May 16, 2008
I applaud California for lifting its ban on gay marriage. The rest of the country should follow suit. It is not the business of the country, of the government, or of religious groups who wants to marry whom. That is the business between the two people involved and no one else.
If you don't agree with homosexuality or gay marriage, that's fine. That is your business, and your right. But it's not only selfish, it's hypocritical for only certain groups of people to be allowed to be married.
Many say that God and the bible say gay marriage is wrong. Well, not everyone believes in God. And there are dozens of different interpretations of the bible out there. How do any of us really know what God believes? How many of us actually know what the bible truly means? Only God knows the answers to those questions. If He has a problem with gay marriage then He will deal with it in His own way and time. It's not our place to do that.
This country is supposed to be known as "land of the free and home of the brave." Perhaps we should change its slogan to "land of the free and home of the brave if you meet certain criteria." Because only certain groups people in this country seem to enjoy true freedom.
I've been happily married to my wonderful wife for 10 years. Why in the world would I not want other people to be able to experience the joy of marriage as I have? Why would I do anything to purposefully make sure they don't experience that? I wouldn't. But there are some selfish, hypocritical people out there that would. They can be happily married, but others can't. That is God's decision and His alone to make, no one else's. Ironically, many of these same people, who claim gay marriage is a sin and is wrong, have no problems committing other sins, such as adultery.
People need to stop worrying about everyone else's relationships and start worrying about their own. There are much more important issues out there to worry about, such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the economy, the hundreds of millions of children all over the world who are being abused, neglected, are dying from starvation and other causes. Those are true causes to crusade for. Trying to limit the ways in which people who love each other exist is not.
Ryan Mitchell
Chattanooga
* * *
I read with interest Ryan Mitchell's post on "gay marriage." My response is going to deal mainly with the issues Mr. Mitchell raises in the third paragraph of his post.
In that paragraph, Mr. Mitchell makes mention of the fact that "many say that God and the bible say gay marriage is wrong." He points out "not everyone believes in God" and reminds us that "there are dozens of different interpretations of the bible." He then asks "how do any of us really know what God believes?" And, "how many of us really knows what the bible means?" His conclusion is "only God knows the answers to those questions. Finally, he says "if He (referring to God) has a problem with gay marriage then He will deal with it in His own way and time. It's not our place to do that."
Because it is sometimes difficult to correctly convey "tone" in written form, I want to preface my remarks by letting those who may read this know that I am not writing from hatred, anger or any other unkind attitude or bias toward Mr. Mitchell or anyone in the gay/lesbian community.
First I want to address the idea that "interpretation" will affect how a person understands what the bible says regarding homosexuality.
In Romans chapter 1 beginning in verse 18 Paul tells his readers that there were some who had turned from worshiping God to worshiping idols. They refused to "retain God in their knowledge (v.28)." In verses 26 and 27 Paul wrote, "God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful . . ."
As you can see, this passage is not at all difficult to understand. The bible plainly and clearly says homosexuality is "vile" passion, "against nature" and "shameful."
Mr. Mitchell states, "not everyone believes in God," this is true. However, ones belief or disbelief in God doesn't change what His word says nor does it change its truthfulness. It says what it says and what it says is true whether one chooses to believe it or not and God has given mankind the freedom to choose.
The Bible is God's revelation of Himself to man. It was given to us so we could know exactly what He thinks and to let us know what He desires from us. It is a book that with some effort can be understood. Some things are easier than others.
So, it really isn't a matter of "if" God has a problem with "gay marriage." His word makes it clear how God feels about homosexuality. Nor has God left us to wonder what in His eyes constitutes a marriage, one man and one woman for life (Matthew 19:4-6).
It is true, as Mr. Mitchell states, that God will "deal with it ("gay marriage") in His own way and in His own time." In Ecclesiastes 12:14, Solomon writes, by inspiration, "For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil." God has made no secret of what will happen to the unrighteous in eternity including those who practice homosexuality (1 Cor. 6:9, 10; cf. Matthew 25:41ff; Gal. 5:19-21).
The job of Christians is to sound the warning to those who are living in rebellion to God. We are to do this in an attitude of compassion and love (Eph. 4:15) not anger and hate. God's desire for man was that not one soul should be lost for eternity (1 Tim. 2:4). Christians, as His children share that desire. No one has to be lost for eternity, but many make that choice and again, God has given us the freedom to make that choice.
God offers hope to those who are practicing homosexuality. In 1 Cor. 6:9 homosexuals are listed among the "unrighteous" who "will not inherit the kingdom of God." But, in v. 11 Paul writes that some of the Christians at Corinth had once practiced homosexuality but had given it up. "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."
The issue of "gay marriage" is too important to leave alone. The degradation of traditional marriage and the traditional family has already had devastating effects on our nation. I fear continuing down this path will eventually doom us. Remember the Roman Empire?
Steve Plemmon
* * *
“Cherry picking” the Bible has been used to subordinate women, criminalize interracial marriage, murder Jewish persons, and denigrate homosexual persons. The action of dehumanizing others through the use of religion should be the abomination.
Subsequently, among many theologians, agreement does not exist concerning some of the passages that are used to disparage homosexual persons. For instance, some argue that Sodom and Gomorrah referred to the sin of inhospitality and a warning about gang rape not a reference to committed homosexual relationships. Likewise, passages of Leviticus are commonly used by individuals to demoralize homosexual persons.
Yet, how many of these people follow all of the Holiness codes prohibiting shaving, wearing cotton/polyester blends, and eating shellfish? Moreover, the Ten Commandments does state that thou shall not commit adultery, but how many adulterers and adulteresses are fired from their jobs, threatened with violence, or murdered in comparison to what occurs to homosexual persons.
In the past, scientific findings were not enough to prevent the dehumanization of and violent acts against others for their individual differences. This is a tragedy that intolerance, hatred, prejudice, discrimination, and fear trumps reason, logic, and peer reviewed scientific research.
As for Mr. Plemmon’s reference to individual passages in the Bible, these passages are not as clear-cut among many Biblical scholars as Mr. Plemmon declares them to be. It is important to look at the historical context of these passages. Such as in Mathew, the word for knowing appears in the Bible 943 times in the Old Testament. Out of the 943 times, only 12 are in reference to sexual outs. Therefore, it is unclear whether knowing is in reference to sexual acts of the following: rape, bestiality, or inhospitality, or to non-sexual knowing.
Interestingly, Mr. Plemmon’s doesn’t suggest to us that we cut the hand that leads to sin which is referenced in Mathew 5:30. Also, the meaning of Corinthians 6:9-11 is debated in that the original Greek work malakoi arsenokoitial is unclear. This word is included in Timothy 1:10 which among many biblical scholars refers to pedophilia and not committed homosexual couples (98% of child molesters are heterosexual).
Finally, we do know that writers of the Bible had a limited understanding of sexuality and other scientific issues. For instance in 1 Chr 16:30, Ps 93:1, and Job 9:6, the Bible says the earth is flat and setting on pillars and cannot move. Galileo spent his remaining years under arrest, and his ideas represented an abomination to the church. In the 21st century, it is time that we stop oppressing others because of their differences and stop practicing medieval Christianity.
Katie O’Bryan
Chattanooga
* * *
All you Bible Beaters need to accept the fact that people are different. You are what I like to call the "Golden Corral Christian" - You treat the Bible like a buffet, picking and choosing only what you see fit.
A common example is that you interpret the Bible as being anti-homosexual, but you do not follow 1 Timothy 2:9 that says women should not wear jewelry. A little picky don't you think?
And I doth quote: "Women should adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."
God loves everybody, regardless of who they sleep with or how ignorant they are.
Joseph Thomas
Joseph_thomastn@yahoo.com
* * *
People like Katie O'Bryan approach the bible with scissors and glue. They like to cut and paste what they want out of the bible and put the cuttings in the shredder. First, there is no reference, not one, to a committed homosexual relationship in the bible. Some radical bible cutters like to make the friendship between Jonathan and David into some unseemly relationship however the word used for the 'love' between these two friends is often also used for the love God has for his people. Appears to be a deep, abiding love like close friends would share.
So let's look at the positive side of human relationships in the bible. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and join to his wife and the two will become one." If the bible authors meant generic persons in a loving relationship they would have said that.
No one uses the bible to hate homosexuals. In truth, the bible is not about hating people but accepting everyone as sinners in a need of a savior. Everyone is free to repent of whatever sin has grabbed hold of them. The issue is that marriage has been defined as the union of one man to one woman for over five thousand years of recorded human history. Now 3.9 percent of the population who are homosexual would like to change that and we are saying no.
Katie would like for us to think that the ancient civilizations were ignorant or backward. Ah, dear Katie, far from it. You cannot compare the Middle Ages and their ignorance after just having survived the Dark Ages when so much was lost or burned to what the ancient civilizations understood. We do not know how the Egyptians built the pyramids and cannot duplicate those today. We do not know how a king of Judea, Herod the Great, had a 500 ton stone cut and brought to support the great retaining wall of the temple in Jerusalem. We also do not have a crane today that could lift that stone. We do not understand how the ancient Maya had a complex calendar and understanding of astronomy and geometry without modern telescopes and yet they did.
And finally one last tidbit of history, Katie. Not one civilization that condoned or legitimized homosexuality has survived. So if the cycles of history repeat themselves you are willing to condemn us to the woodpile of history by embracing these lifestyles. So call us haters if you like, we know better. We are preserving our culture, our heritage, and the truth of the Scripture without legitimizing sinful behavior.
Cliff Sarbel
* * *
This topic will be talked about for years to come. Should the ban on gay marriages be on the table? It all depends on who one asks. The Christian community or the homosexual community. There is a very fine line there.
This topic is hot as a firecracker on the fourth of July. The Christian community wants the ban to stay on the books. There are many reasons for us to believe what we stand for. We as a community believe that marriage is between man and woman. Our interpretation of the "good book" backs up statements and such beliefs. We were raised on the principals that marriage is between man and woman. Nothing can change this view nor opinion. It was instilled in us long before we were born. The opinion of sexual predators were "just heterosexuals" is out of hand. Who really knows what these sick individuals' sexual orientation is?
The interpretations of the bible are yet another question for the centuries. There are no true interpretations of the bible. Anyone can read what they want into the scriptures. They can do that to back their opinions. The doomsday prophets read of doom and gloom in the bible. They love to predict when that time comes. Not even the high angels know the time. The Christian community reads the scriptures of homosexuality is one of the deadly sins. They have scriptures to back up our beliefs. The homosexual community have their own interpretations to back up their beliefs.
I have gay friends. The subject never comes up for we respect one another. They respect me for being heterosexual. I respect their rights to live life the way that they see fit. I am not here to judge anyone. The good Lord built me to live in this world but I (like his children) am not of this world. I am a Baptist since birth. I have my beliefs and opinions. The bible gives me comfort of the troubles that I experience in my life. The bible is like a wonderful history book. I find myself lost in it for hours, learning about Jesus and his works. He suffered a great death and humiliation so I would not have to. Nobody in this world would do that for me. To love me that much to suffer that great. If someone tries to push their beliefs or opinions on me, I will stand strong for what I believe.
Laura Crane
* * *
Steve Plemmons wrote the best response I've read on this website since its inception. We need men like Steve that have the knowledge and wisdom to fill the gap created by loose thinking displayed in opinions such as Mr. Mitchell's. Mr. Plemmons' response is well thought-out and speaks truth directly from the pages of God's Word.
Katie O'Bryan, on the other hand, sounds like a dogmatic, radical thinking, liberal professor who teaches evolution under the guise of education in one of our higher education institutions. She obviously practices that which she preaches against. In twisting the Word and misinterpreting passages, she attempts to lead us down a path of deceit and out and out lies concerning how God really feels about homosexuality as well as other sins such as adultery.
The example she gives using I Cor. 6:9-11, in the King James Version, plainly speaks truth that those guilty of any of the list of sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. However, in verse 11, Paul states that some of the recipients of his letter to Corinth were once guilty but now are washed, justified and sanctified due to their conversion and denial of such activities. (Word to Ms. O'Bryan: Sanctified translates "set apart" as relates to God's purposes in one's life.)
Oh, and all those men of Sodom and Gomorrah that were only interested in gang rape...they turned down Lot's two daughters because they wanted the two "men" who were guests at Lot's home. By the way, the two men were angels. Just in case Ms. O'Bryan doesn't know, angels are always masculine. (That probably won't make her happy either.)
One last thing; Columbus sailed the ocean blue based on what he learned in his bible studies. Look up Isaiah 40:22.
Marty Von Schaaf
Chattanooga
* * *
The favorite saying of the religious right is that God did not create Adam and Steve, he created Adam and Eve.
Using common sense if all the people on earth had their beginning by Adam and Eve having babies, then all of the people on earth were created by incest. Is incest not a crime against nature, brother had to be with sister, father with daughter and mother with son?
Most people that want to tell other people how to live their lives do not have a holy type of lifestyle themselves. Most of the married people have been married three or four times, but they say that marriage is a thing made in heaven. Give me a break people. I do not favor gay or lesbian marriage but it is not my business to tell someone what they can or cannot do if it is not hurting me or anybody else.
So I suggest to you self-righteous people to mind your own business and clean up your own act before condemning somebody else.
Harold McCoy
Rossville
* * *
I do not wish to become embroiled in hurling rhetoric back and forth on the issue of gay marriage. However, I would like to point out a few things to those who have posted on this subject, particularly in response to the remarks made by Katie O'Bryan.
First of all, the view that marriage is a lifelong covenant between one man and one woman is not merely the product of "medieval Christianity." It actually dates all the way back to the Genesis account of creation in which God specifically designed the woman and the man to complement and fulfill each other in a bond that was so close that he referred to it as becoming "one flesh" (Genesis 2:18-25). It is interesting to note that in more recent years, scientific research has actually re-affirmed the wisdom of this ancient concept of marriage. Studies have shown that the differences between men and women go far beyond mere physiological distinctions, and these differences for some reason tend to be mutually complementary. Men and women are different by design, and the Judeo-Christian concept of marriage simply recognizes the need for both genders when establishing a family unit. Of course there are other issues of compatibility which must also be considered, but this does not negate the general principle involved here.
It is also true (as Katie and others have noted) that some people have managed to "cherry-pick" the Bible in an attempt to give some kind of basis for all kinds of horrific beliefs, such as some already mentioned. However, in each of these cases, the error was not in what the Bible actually said, but in the reader imposing his/her own views upon the scriptures without endeavoring to understand what the original writer intended. Unfortunately, there are some today who are making this same error by endeavoring to change what has been the traditional Judeo-Christian view of marriage not just for centuries, but for millenniums. I can appreciate Katie's references to particular Greek words and the range of meanings which they can have. As one who has taken a combined total of 44 semester hours in biblical language studies (undergrad and graduate levels) along with numerous other academic hours studying Bible, theology, and church history, I realize that the Bible is interpreted in many different ways. However, there are some things in the Bible about which Jewish and Christian believers historically have shared a strong and broad consensus. The traditional view of marriage is one of them.
I am well aware that this consensus is no longer shared in some denominations today, but this is because they have chosen to amend their own previously-held beliefs.
As to the references which were made to various holiness codes in the Old Testament, these can easily be explained when one understands what God was trying to teach the people of Israel (and each one of us). A few of these codes might be a bit more difficult to understand today because of the historical and cultural gap between then and now. However, most of them can be understood as either a universal principle, or a specific application of a principle. While many Christians do tend to ignore these portions of scripture, this should not be used as an excuse for the rest of us to pick and choose. Some of them have been fulfilled by the advent and redemptive work of Jesus Christ (e.g. animal sacrifices, etc.). Others no longer apply in the same way, though the principle behind these codes is still valid (e.g. dietary regulations in which certain animals were "clean" and others declared "unclean"). Still others were part of the civil/governmental code of the early Jewish nation, but are not incumbent upon every civil government.
It is really beyond the scope of this forum to be able to address all of the issues raised here, but I simply want others who are reading this to see that the Bible speaks with a consistent voice concerning God's design for the institution of marriage and the family. This view is not based upon a few isolated texts as some would lead us to believe. Furthermore, the fact that a person holds to this view of marriage does not mean that he/she feels hatred or animosity toward those who either have chosen or have been initiated into a different lifestyle. We can speak the truth in love and treat those who differ with dignity and compassion. I pray that this will be the tone that comes through in what I have written here.
Richard G. Hutchison, Pastor
First Bible Methodist Church
* * *
I agree with Mr. Mitchell. It's not our place to say whom can marry whom. That is determined by God, and God alone. I also can't understand how some people feel they have the right to deny others happiness. I find it amusing that many of the so called bible beaters who preach that homosexuality is a sin have no problem committing sins every day. How many of these same bible beaters cheat on their spouses? Have lied? Have stolen? More than would care to admit. They think it doesn't matter what sins they commit during the week, or how many they commit, as long as they're straight, and as long as they show up to church on Sunday.
Some people have actually gone so far as to say that gay marriage is a "degradation to marriage as we know it." How is two people who love one another and who vow to commit to each other a degradation to marriage? Let me tell you folks what a true degradation to marriage is: my parents. My parents were married for 19 years. And it was a living hell, not only for them, but for myself, my brothers and sister. They fought constantly, they both actually admitted later in life that neither one actually loved the other one, they just married so they could have children. I think that two people who hate each other and still marry each other have no respect for marriage. It was the most vile, unhappy, hate filled home to grow up in. Yet the homosexual couple who lived across the street from us, the ones who were happy, and respectful of one another, the ones who actually loved and cared about each other, were the ones that were always ostracized. My parents on the other hand were always respected. Tell me how that makes any sense at all. I'm not saying a homosexual household is always happier than a heterosexual one. I'm saying that a heterosexual household isn't as perfect as the bible beaters always want to make it out to be.
Why are we so worried about gay marriage? Shouldn't we be more worried about straight marriage? After all, the divorce rate in this country is sky high thanks to us heterosexuals. If heterosexuals can't figure out how to have a successful marriage, and obviously most can't, then we have no business telling others how it's supposed to be done.
Aubrey Buchannon
Chattanooga
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